Mating Dances, Parries & Thrusts

Milan had an interesting post the other day about so-called  Pickup Artists (PUAs). As you may know, these are guys that take special PUA training courses  that supposedly teach them how manipulate, cajole, entice, maneuver and otherwise “trick” women into having sex with them.

The PUA industry is a thriving enterprise with online seminars  live workshops, forumsconferencesbooks, and websites.

Just Google PUA and you’ll get pages and pages of options. Pages and pages.

These “gurus of seduction” promise to teach any man how to get  women — no matter his age, income, looks or personality. They teach him how to dress, what to do with his hair, how to groom himself for maximum appeal. They teach him facial expressions that he has to practice for hours in the mirror. They teach him the minutiae of body language. They teach him how to approach a woman, where to approach her, what to say, how to say it, when to say what and how to stand and move when he says it.

PUAs even have their own language complete with acronyms and code words.

PUA instructors teach their eager students that women like masterful men. They teach them stuff like being slightly insulting to a woman when you first meet will force her to prove herself worthy. It’s all incredibly detailed and assumes that women will be robbed of their free will when all these tactics are employed.

Milan, and many others, feel this is all “exploitative and potentially unethical”.  There have even been discussions that PUAs could conceivably be charged with “rape by deception.

Personally, I find it all hugely absurd.

Absurd because these guys pay a big pile of money because they think they’re being imbued with magical powers when in reality they’re mainly just being taught how not to look like a schlub or a dork and how to make the most of their limited assets. But mainly it gives them the confidence to approach a female for once. Actually making an effort to seduce a woman, in and of itself, raises the odds of being successful, doesn’t it?

I also think it’s absurd because it assumes women have no interest in being seduced and need to be tricked into it. Women are as eager to be seduced as men are to seduce them. If women are trolling the bars (the PUAs hunting ground of choice) they are usually quite open to hooking up.

And if they’re not, there is little a guy can say or legally do that’s going to convince her.

Am I wrong?

Should we be worried about the PUA industry? Haven’t women been inundated for centuries with tricks and tips and careful instruction on how to attract a man, make him fall hopelessly in love and propose?

Remember The Rules?  That book spawned a whole movement of workshops, seminars, DVDs, dating coaches and appearances on Oprah. The Rules told women clever stuff like “respond once for every four of his emails” because that would make him want you more.

Paul Janka, one of the kings of the PUA industry says:

Women… have their ideal guy, their ideal date, and a whole bag of dirty tricks to get everything they want. If you aren’t careful, you’ll end up paying for everything, getting nothing, and wasting your time before being pushed aside to make way for the next chump with a wallet.

Not only that, the average woman is far more adept at the dating game than men are. Think of all the time and money they spend on hair, makeup, clothes and maximizing their seduction value … to say nothing of the superior social intelligence of the average woman and the all the magazines they read full of relationship and sex advice.

Stepping into the dating game unarmed is like stepping into a pool full of piranhas.

I know most of you don’t care about any of this because you’re comfortably ensconced in your forever relationships and right now are saying, “Phew, I’m glad I’m not out there anymore.

But it’s still interesting stuff, isn’t it? And people have been getting help for ages with snagging the opposite sex from shadchanim,  to buying affections with gifts, to love potions to Spanish Fly  to good old fashioned booze.

So here are some questions for your consideration:

Women

  1.  Do you feel you were ever in your life tricked into sex by some smooth operator?
  2. Have you ever employed a trick or tip from a magazine or other source to get a man to like you or do something he didn’t want to do?
  3. Do you resent that men are conspiring in this cold, clinical way to seduce women?
  4. Here’s an account by a journalist subjected to Paul Janka’s best seduction techniques. Do you think they’d actually work on any woman you know?  
  5. If you’d just spent the night with a guy and then found out he’d was heavily involved in the whole PUA thing, would you feel manipulated? “Raped by deception?”

Men

  1.  Have you ever tricked a woman into having sex with you?
  2. Do you think PUA training is valuable or necessary?
  3. If you are or were single, would you ever consider enrolling in a PUA course?
  4. Here’s an account by a journalist subjected to Paul Janka’s best seduction techniques. Do you think they’d actually work for you?
  5. Do you feel you’ve ever been manipulated by a woman using tricks she learned from the media and/or at her mamma’s knee?
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43 responses to “Mating Dances, Parries & Thrusts

  1. Let’s face it. Some guys need all the help they can get. The wolves will be wolves but most guys should be considered “socially-challenged”. Aren’t women happy that someone has taken the trouble to educate their date not to consider belching the national anthem as an acceptable party trick?

    Interestingly, I offered help to the dating clueless on my blog with assistance from Dr. Love. If interested, check it out here….
    http://lgsquirrel.wordpress.com/2008/02/10/advice-from-doctor-love/

  2. If it would be anything like that idiot in the article, I would definitely not be interested. I guess I must be really old and rather boring but I’ve never experienced any of what you wrote about. I read The Rules and don’t think I ever used one thing from it. I just didn’t date much before and between my two marriages and I’m sort of glad.

  3. the body language stuff is helpful in all areas of life and is something I teach my students when we learn about presentation skills. One of the ways I keep them interested is letting them know it will help them get dates and/or keep their date interested in them. Body language is a two way street and women will benefit just as much as men.

    Taking a course on how to dress well is something a lot of people need. The only reason I know how to dress well is advice from my wife and careful observation of what other people are wearing.

    Never tricked a woman into having sex with me. Probably should have as I would have had a more active sex life, but unfortunately I’m not good at manipulating people nor am I interested in manipulation.

    Finally I’m very happy to be out of the dating scene. I’m very happy to be married to my wife and do not want to be looking for anyone else. Life is much simpler being married.

  4. Holy Cow! My best friend’s icky boyfriend! I had never heard the term PUA before and I just googled “PUA (best friend’s boyfriend’s name)” and google shows About 582,000 results. I knew he made his living marketing some sort of stupid “system” (that I refuse to name here) to help men meet women and feel better about themselves or whatever, but I had never heard of PUA before. Apparently a lot of sorry chaps out there are willing to shell out the bucks because he actually earns a good living doing almost nothing. Ha Ha! He’s like a modern P.T. Barnum. But probably ickier.

  5. LGS – I can see why you’re happily married with all this wisdom AND a witchdoctor on your side! And I think you’re right. Why not educate the guys a bit – level the playing field, as it were??

    Linda – Well, la-dee-dah, Miss “I just snap my fingers and a new husband appears so I don’t have to date”. I don’t really understand how this PUA stuff would work on women either, unless they want to be with the guy anyway and are just waiting to be asked. I’ll bet there are tons of missed opportunities where people are interested in each other, but each lacks the confidence to approach the other.

    Sean – You’re a good boy, Sean. I don’t think tricks are necessary or even very useful. There are plenty of women who are up for a little of “how’s-your-father” without having to hoodwink any.

    Geewits – I’m excited that I actually managed to blog about something you’d never heard of!! Interesting that the guy who is out advising men on how to be players is in a relationship with a woman and not out playing himself. (He isn’t is he??) So you think he’s icky? Is he all swarmy and oily all the time with everyone?

  6. If you need lessons on how to pick up women… You are a real loser.

    And if you also pay for them… You are even more loser. (Can you call him “The Loosest”?)

    There’s a market for everything, eh?!

    Have a great day…

  7. 1. Do I feel like I was ever tricked into sex by a smooth operator? Nope! I think I was always attracted to the losers back in the day when I was dating! HA! It’s a good thing I’m not there now.
    2.Hmmm I don’t think I have ever employed a trick or tip from a magazine (etc) to get a man but I’m sure I have done things that I wouldn’t normally do, behaved differently or said things that weren’t typical of me type thing. I doubt it worked…like I said, I was more of a loser magnet!
    4.I didn’t read the account by the journalist, but I’m positive anything will work on SOME women!
    5.If I had just spent the night with a guy and then found out he was heavily involved in the whole PUA thing, would I feel manipulated? “Raped by deception?”. I think ‘raped by deception’ is go too far. I would think he’s a sleeze and be turned off by that. I think that even if a man totally lies about who he is and a woman opts to sleep with him then that is her own choice. It’s not nice that he lied but it’s kind of up to the individual to get to know someone before they sleep with them no?

  8. I can’t actually believe that men would pay to learn what this dude seems to have.
    Lets see – he was on TV a couple of times and is enjoying his 15 minutes, and women are throwing themselves at him I guess?
    I have enjoyed a modicum of success with women and what I learned was that if a woman wants to then you just have to hope that you are there when she decides its time.
    And wash your junk.

  9. I can’t help but think there are a lot of guys out there who are spending lots of money for nothing. Because no woman I know is going to fall for that shit. Insult me and you will never get into my pants. It’s so freaking ridiculous! And yes, if I’m hanging out in bars, I’m pretty much open to being picked up – except if you freaking insult me…

  10. On a scale of 10, for picking up women, I generously rate myself a 0.2.

    That being said, I’m not stupid enoughto pay money for any pick-up techniques.

    If I’m really that desperate, I’ll go to a legal brothel in Nevada.

    Not that I ever would.

    But you know..it’s nice to know the option is there. 🙂

  11. It’s a huge load of bull for suckers. All of it. The courses for pathetic men and books for desperate women.

    If you want to pick someone up or better yet, start a relationship. Do the following:

    -Make sure you are clean and wearing decent clothes (Nothing dirty or hole-y)
    -Don’t overload on jewelry or perfume
    -Walk up to them, say hi and start a normal, adult conversation. Make sure you are polite and listen to them. Be honest and DON’T use idiotic pick-up lines.

    Done! If that doesn’t work on the person, then they aren’t right for you. Go find another.

    Also-Men who aren’t total douchebags just looking to “score”, should avoid trying to get a date at a nightclub. They are usually not the best venue to find decent women.

  12. Mr. G – Well, you know not everyone has the smooth latin charm of the smooth latin charmer. Anglos, for instance, need a lot of help. That doesn’t necessarily make them losers…I don’t think… just not smooth and charming enough maybe??

    Betsy Mae – Every woman I’ve ever spoken to says they attracted losers when they were dating. I suspect that the loser to keeper ratio in the man department must be very high.

    Lebanowski1728 – Who could resist a man with clean junk? I’m sure they must teach that at the PUA class, too.

    Jazz – Exactly. I think these courses must help men to just look and behave like someone women would actually look twice at. Usually the guys who can’t get woman at all, don’t know how to dress and don’t know how to even approach a woman. Or, if they do they have some sort of needy or off-putting attitude about them. It surely can’t hurt to have some help with that. Too bad the whole PUA thing goes way, way beyond the basics and doesn’t encourage men to try and seek out and build real relationships instead of just bagging chicks.

    Friar – Okay, here’s a question for you. Do you actually TRY to pick up women? Because a lot of guys who say they’re no good at it, don’t actually do much about it. Do you make much of an effort to seek out available women and try to “woo” them? Or do you just assume that you’re no good at it and so don’t even bother?

    Pauline – You should become a dating guru!! It all sounds so simple when you say it. But it ain’t that simple for a lot of people to put into practice. Because realistically just having clean and mended clothes isn’t going to do much to attract potential mates/lovers. People need to “advertise” themselves. They need to make an extra effort to be as attractive as possible. Once you know someone they don’t care so much if you’re all well-coiffed, but for an initial attraction there has to be a bit of artifice, I think. Also, I should have asked if men, especially when they’re younger, actually go out looking for relationships in the same way that women do or if they really are just out looking for sex. I suspect the latter, but I could be wrong.

  13. I find the pickup-artist thing extremely distasteful – it reeks of venality. You say that it assumed the women will be robbed of their free will, but I’m not sure that practitioners believe in free will as they take a purely mechanistic approach to behaviour and goal-setting and attainment.

    They think that if the woman is persuaded, it’s what she really ‘wanted’ genetically, so it’s a moral non-issue. But I would have a lower opinion of a woman who fell for it. I don’t mean I would have contempt for them; I just would think something like, “oh, you’re a bit foolish, aren’t you?” I would expect a friend of mine to know better than to be manipulated by insult and flattery. It strips human persons of their dignity and virtue to become such base, unreflecting slaves to instinct, like frogs that will mate with your hand if you rub them in the right place. Or Christina Aguilera (Genie in a Bottle).

    When I am approached I am not influenced by what the woman does – it’s what she is, or seems to be, that matters to me. I will take my time and look closely.

    1. No. Haha. Apparently I am sometimes ‘smooth’ but it’s just a kind of play. I tried to pick up by being smooth but then I no longer wanted what I was aiming for… or realised I never wanted it in the first place.

    2. No, not at all. People have been mating for a long time without it.

    3. I am single, and I wouldn’t.

    4. I don’t have any problem seducing a woman I am genuinely interested in. I am seldom interested in anyone though.

    5. When I was younger and totally inexperienced I did feel violated by older, more sexually confident women once or twice. I ended up thinking, “what the hell am I doing here!?” – not pleasant. I don’t know whether this involved particular ‘tricks’ or just ordinary manipulativeness.

    People borrow the force of eroticism for pleasure, but it has its own place and function. I don’t mean, “only shag for reproduction”, but I don’t think it’s something that should be too bent out of its original shape just cos we’re bored or fed up with being single. I think if you do that you waste yourself for the real thing and the right person. And for life in general.

  14. One major reason I dislike the PUA concept is because it reinforces the point of how easy people are to manipulate, even using tricks that they know. When we look at $29.99, our brains see ‘about $20’ even though everybody knows it is a trick.

    Another issue is that the more people use PUA tactics, the more women might grow to expect men to behave in that way. That risks driving everyone towards behaving similarly, out of competition.

  15. G – I don’t know why, but until now, I thought you were a woman. That’s really kind of oddly interesting, isn’t it? Because I’m usually pretty good at “reading” that sort of thing. Hmmm.

    Milan – Although when I see $29.99 I see $30, I do get what you mean. It still looks like less than $30. And, as G said, women who fall for that glib PUA approach have some issues themselves. I don’t think most intelligent women would be interested in a guy that insults them right off the bat, for instance. I don’t really see a problem of this PUA becoming the norm or expected. You’re doing okay with your unique approach, aren’t you??

  16. “Another issue is that the more people use PUA tactics, the more women might grow to expect men to behave in that way. That risks driving everyone towards behaving similarly, out of competition.”

    – I think this is a good point: when people adopt dirty tricks; a ‘means-to-an-end’ approach, some kind of arms-race tends to ensue; escalation.

  17. 1. No.

    2. Quite possibly, especially for people who don’t have much intuitive awareness of how people respond to them. PUA training reminds me of con artist training, if there were such a thing. Some people are naturals who don’t need it, but I suspect it is useful for at least some people.

    3. No, but partly because they seem to be focused on the wrong sorts of women and situations. I am not interested in meeting random women in bars. That said, I am certainly interested in meeting women with particular characteristics and becoming associated with them. If a book or course seemed to offer a credible shot of improving such outcomes, I would consider it.

    4. This article doesn’t seem to demonstrate much. One major reason why PUA tactics seem likely to succeed is that the person using them doesn’t care much which person they are ultimately successful with. As long as you can move on easily after it fails with one person, chances are you can make it work with someone else.

    5. Certainly.

  18. Right now I’m not “trying”. But at the times I did try, I failed miserably. Repeatedly.

    I just don’t know how to play the game and I’m not interested in investing the effort to learn it.

    But I have a natural talent for getting dogs and kids to like me. I dont’ even try, I just act like myself. But my nephews and friends’ kids and neighbor’s dogs just can’t get enough of “Uncle Friar” and they just want to be with me.

    It’s probably the same principle with pick-up artists, except they’re applying it to a different target audience, and for a different motive.

  19. @XUP: I am interested in poetry and warfare – I am atypical and don’t have much time for stereotyped groups and behaviours. I don’t think much about gender or try self-consciously to escape sterotypes; I just disregard them. I don’t know what’s cause and what’s effect here (nature/nurture), but I think that if you met me I would come across as gentle but not effeminate – I have a ridiculously deep voice for one thing. I don’t think I am short on testosterone. I was a Thai boxer and a muscle-head at one point; I like firearms and Motorhead. I find the narrow conformity of blokey social groups boring beyond endurance, but sometimes a dose of it feels right – just a dose, then I go back to hanging out with my usual weirdo homies.

    It used to trouble me a lot, having ‘contradictory’ traits, until I realised how stupid the culture I live in is – they are not really contradictory traits. The same woman can be a striptease artist, a solider, a leader, a servant, a scholar, a mother and a daughter. Beliefs require more consistency than traits and behaviours, I think. I don’t think I have any silly ideas about ‘maleness’ left – just sort of tentative empirical ideas; scientific ideas about what’s typical, not ideals and ‘moral’ standards.

  20. A close friend of mine (40ish), never married but would like to, decided to take a chance and try eharmony. After doubting her horror stories about the men “interested” in talking to her, I had to see proof. She showed me 100+ photos of men who’s “best” photo included socks and sandals, speedo bathing suits, creepy poses with pets (?), obvious dirty clothing etc. Clearly there are some men (and probably woman too) that need coaching on how to clean up and put your best foot forward.

  21. I think it’s kind of funny that these men are paying money and ‘thinking’ they’re wooing a woman (guess it gives them a confidence boost). I believe if a woman wants to be wooed she’ll play the game. If she wants no part of it then, in my opinion, they’ll get nowhere.

    I’ve always been pretty shy so in high school and college I’d never have the nerve to use “tricks”, plus the idea doesn’t feel right anyway. As I get older I get pickier; if I’m interested in someone I let them know because I never know when the next one (if any) will come along, lol. The last three dates I’ve been on have been initiated by me (we won’t say how many years ago that was, though). I appreciate a man who isn’t afraid to ask, but who knows when no means no.

  22. But Davina, don’t you think that there’s an element of hypnosis here? Especially, I think, in the case of women who are not very mature and don’t know what they want – they can be manipulated. I’ve seen these ridiculous peacock men with stunningly beautiful girls – I don’t feel like the girl necessarily ‘deserved better’ but I know that she has been manipulated into going out with the ugly fat guy with the shiny leather trenchcoat and Russel Brand haircut. (Not that there’s anything wrong with being a fat ugly freaky dresser per se, but you know it’s not what a young babe originally has her sights set on.)

    To me, ethically, it’s like a watered-down version of the old ‘abused wife’ question: yes, the ‘stronger’ party, the ‘abuser’ on the face of it ‘deserves’ more of the blame, but doesn’t the ‘victim’ also help to create the situation? So what I feel is, the pickup-artist sins by manipulating, and the girl sins by letting herself be manipulated.

    But I see people get hypnotized and tricked to an incredible extent by people like Derren Brown – some seem to be real masters of manipulation.

  23. Like Milan says, how easy to trick the brain stem and it’s con-artist training, but has useful principles for the clueless.

    Four player patterers come to mind. One fellow was too polished and too fast to seem as authentic as he intended. One still exploded neediness in a blinding spray around him, reading people badly (I think due to some facial blindness issues) so failed. A third inspired me to figure out just what was going and so I read two players guides and see how that was working, and anticipate the next and intercept. He said under his breath, a confused, “but that always works”. A fourth had the routine pat and seemed as innocuous as Janka in a way. He’s only hurting or helping himself. Everyone needs a hobby and his was pretty transparent.

    Most men or women aren’t into such power games. Some sense of rules of engagement and how to talk to others can help some people. Getting a scaffold of what to do for what effect and what to say and not can help if one is particularly awkward, some kinds of autistic or sociopathic.

    Janka’s techniques might be skewed in the telling. He seems sort of creep on fast-forward but I suppose it would work if one wanted a no-strings quickie. He didn’t seem to read her well of what was catching and missing so just threw his entire catalogue in order. He fumbles for brain-stem buttons and if you want those pressed and have been waiting for that,…

    On that last question: if somehow one managed to not realize one was being played and got taken in by one’s own wishes for a knight or dream man or forever and if he dropped forever hints, one might feel betrayed and embarrassed, foolish but manipulated into sex is tricky. Is he fishing out of legal waters or malevolently? A good PUA should be good camping sort of thing: catch and release and leave no trash behind. Maybe go half and half on culpability but no further.

  24. To avoid any possible “rape by deception”, I propose the following.

    The man proposes what he’d like to do with said female. It goes through his lawyer, to her lawyer, and there is a signed affidavit, stamped by a notary republic, that permits the man to try proceed, at the specified time, date and place.

    And if nothing happens on said date, the offer expires and they have to start the paperwork all over again, for the next time they’re together.

    (Yes, I know I’m sounding facetious). But there is a grain of truth behind this.

    Good Lord…there’s a huge difference between forcible rape, versus being a smooth talker and seducing a grown adult.

    It frigthens me to think how one’s life can get ruined, if the other partner claimed had regrets, and claimed, after-the-fact, that they hadn’t really wanted to have sex, after-all.

    Yet one more of the many reasons why I’m currently staying single!

  25. G – Boy, I don’t know…I don’t think there are enough men committed to the PUA life to make it a problem for regular guys, do you? And about the gender thing – that’s interesting that you recognize and appreciate that duality in yourself. I was only making assumptions based on how you respond and think as evidenced by your writing. And now the Motorhead comment makes me think you might even be a lot younger than I originally thought. You’re totally messing up my prejudging skills!!

    Milan – I think what makes the PUA thing objectionable is that it pretends that it’s all about tricking women into having sex. If it marketed itself more as a self-improvement, dating/relationship coaching thing it would seem far more acceptable.

    Lebanowski1728 – I’m pretty sure that someone like that wouldn’t even bother with a course.

    Friar – Women are generally drawn to men who like dogs and kids. Unless you approached women at social gatherings by throwing sticks for them or scratching their chins?

    MM – Absolutely! I’m not even a little bit surprised by your friend’s experience having been in the single’s pool almost forever.

    Davina – I wouldn’t use the word “wooing” for what these PUAs are up to. “Wooing” is such a nice, courtly, gentle word. So, you’re single now, but have given up on dating?

    Pearl – Catch and release? Boy that doesn’t give women much credit. I know what you’re saying, but women aren’t fish swimming blindly around without any interest or intention of getting “hooked. They’re out there hunting, too. And like Janka says, they’ve got their tricks down pat having been trained in womanly wiles from birth. As well as possessing more social awareness, generally speaking, than men. The problem with the PUA thing is, as you imply, it’s a one-size-fits-all sort of thing without any training on how to understand women as individuals. And that’s where it’s going to fail in the long run, I think.

    Friar – It’s pretty hard to get even a “date rape” charge, so I doubt that a “regrets” charge would ever see the light of day. I don’t think you should lock yourself up forever on the very remote chance that some nutbag is going to try and make trouble for you. Part of life is dealing with the crazy people in the world. Living among other humans comes with no guarantees of being touched only by perfect, kind, responsible, respectful, sane people.

  26. Yeah XUP, there’re inevitable difficulties getting to know people without actually seeing them or hearing their voice, but it would seem to sometimes work against some forms of prejudice… pros, cons…

    I don’t forsee a near future where every other person is a pick-up artist; just a potential problem of deepening cynicism and a mechanistic view of human beings and life-goals. “I will stimulate you in the right way in order that you will give up your womb to me then I will inseminate you and achieve my male function and be happy.” – heh, maybe something’s missing from this outlook..? Mibby?

    I’ve long thought that a life lived well doesn’t necessarily include the things people usually desire, such as career and relationship success, popularity, health or a long life.

  27. I think people are wrong to assume that people in general – or themselves in particular – cannot be easily manipulated with psychological tricks. Most people can be, and indeed are frequently, for instance by advertising.

    The reason why there is a PUA culture of men chasing women isn’t because women are easier to manipulate. Rather, it is because women don’t need any special techniques whatsoever to manipulate men into having sex with them. That may partly be a reflection of how women face more risks, when it comes to sex. (Though men also face risks) It is also the product of culturally constructed gender roles.

  28. This asymmetry is mentioned in the psychology course I mentioned earlier:

    “This work has been done ten years ago, where they have an incredibly attractive man and an incredibly attractive woman and they approach people on campus. They’re not from campus; they’re actors brought in. And they go to people, to strangers, and they say, “I’ve been noticing you around campus. I find you very attractive. Would you go out with me tonight? Would you come over to my apartment tonight? Would you go to bed with me tonight?” The experiment you wouldn’t think anybody would’ve done has been done, and women about–a very attractive man, over half of the women approached say, “Yeah, I will. [go out with you tonight]” Very few agree to this [“Would you come to my apartment tonight?”], and nobody agrees to this [“Would you go to bed with me tonight?”]. For men, the data are like this, they go up to there and then up to there [they say yes 50%, 69% and 75% of the time respectively]. In this study, the twenty five percent of males who said “no” apologized profusely, and they said, “Oh, you know, my fiancé’s in town, and [unintelligible].””

  29. Grace – NO! I love it when people notice my post titles. I work hard at those. Thank you for being a fan.

    G – There’s a big difference between actually desiring these things in your life and just wanting them because it’s expected that you want them. Also, I don’t know that we could get any more cynical than we already are. Between reality shows and talk shows and tabloids and the internet and Parliament on TV, it would be difficult to have any illusions left about anything.

    Milan – No, most women don’t need too many tricks to get men to have sex with them, but women usually have an entirely different agenda. They’re looking for a mate; a relationship. And for that, they need a whole bag of tricks because men are as skittish about that as women are about one-night stands…generally speaking, of course. It think your experiment kind of bears that out.

  30. Interesting comments… Ah you people who are in a long term relationship, many of us singleton do envy you….

    Here are my responses:
    1. Do you feel you were ever in your life tricked into sex by some smooth operator?
    Probably but then I was consenting because we had sex… my expectations of it are my own responsibility.

    2. Have you ever employed a trick or tip from a magazine or other source to get a man to like you or do something he didn’t want to do?
    I’m not sure if it was from a magazine but one boyfriend I dated for a while was very responsive to reverse psychology… I’m not sure a magazine would have the guts to label it this way lol

    3. Do you resent that men are conspiring in this cold, clinical way to seduce women?
    Hell no! People can do whatever they want. Besides, many women are doing it this way too but it’s probably to obtain stuff. I’m not like that.

    4. Here’s an account by a journalist subjected to Paul Janka’s best seduction techniques. Do you think they’d actually work on any woman you know?
    Sorry, I briefly glanced at the article, I must confess being utterly bored by the time I reached when she got the text “still there? Come over”… that wouldn’t work with me.

    5. If you’d just spent the night with a guy and then found out he’d was heavily involved in the whole PUA thing, would you feel manipulated? “Raped by deception?”
    Nah, if it would happen, it would have happened because I was a consenting adult and it’s my decision. I’m not stupid enough to believe that ONS are forever.

    As an aside note to Pauline, there ARE good people in bars. I go to a bar sometimes with a group of friends as I love to dance. I could survey my friends and they would unanimously say that I am a very nice, decent, loving, gentle, compassionate individual. But as per your logic, if I’m in a bar, I’m a loser? Why thank you very much… 🙂

  31. @ G. You have a point there; those who are not very mature and don’t know what they want, can be manipulated and if that’s the case, both are at fault. On the other extreme, I’m so picky that a guy would have to work real hard to get past what I already “think” I know I want.

    @XUP. Yep. Single and wondering if I’ll break my last 8-year record. The whole idea of ‘dating’ is losing its appeal; maybe I’m just out of practice. But, I’d just like a buddy to hang out with, you know?; someone to tease, to enjoy nature with, some good movies and just each other’s company. Somehow, that doesn’t sound like a date to me. It’s more like companionship.

    Like I said; I know what I like, but I can’t get into the whole dating scene per se; dinner and dancing or a move and ‘polite’ conversation. Damn why does it have to be so F’ing complicated?

  32. XUP, imagine someone could hypnotize anyone into having sex with them. Wouldn’t that be a new extreme in dating cynicism?

  33. BTW… G is a poet, if anyone is interested. 🙂 He floated into the comment section of my last blog post. Really cool. Thanks G.

  34. Sylvie – I agree with you. The whole mating thing has always and will always be a “buyer beware” environment – with or without so-called new fangled tricks. There have always been smooth operators/wolves/conmen and there have always been golddiggers/women who use men or whatever. Just because some sharp cookie comes along and wraps it up in a fancy package and gives it a new name and charges people to unwrap the package, doesn’t make it something new and scary. Also, I used to go to bars/clubs once upon a time – until everyone there got too young. People who are happily married think single people out looking for relationships (or even those who have given up looking) are automatically sad and pathetic. I, in turn, am always amazed at their smugness at not having to be “out there” because lord knows marriage is no guarantee of forever.

    Davina – Hey, maybe we should date! Sounds like we’d be compatible – except for that whole “we’re both girls” thing. Maybe you’d like to join our Golden Girls Do Europe group? A small collection of perennially singles who plan to rent a villa in the south of France together when we retire. And if we get tired of France, we’ll move on to Italy or Spain.

    G – As I understand it, you can’t make anyone do anything under hypnosis that they don’t really want to do. But ya, that would be akin to roofies.

    Davina – I saw that. Where did this G come from all of a sudden anyway? Did he come via your blog? Have you seen his blog?

  35. women usually have an entirely different agenda. They’re looking for a mate; a relationship.

    Put in this way, what men are looking for seems more honest: sex for the sake of its own enjoyment, rather than something to be traded for a relationship.

  36. @Xup: Well, there you go – I think there’s a grey area. Total hypnosis would be the equivalent of roofies, or slavery; PUA Dark Jedi trickery isn’t quite total hypnosis, but it’s not entirely dissimilar, is it? I have heard this notion, that ‘hypnosis can’t make you do what you don’t want to anyway’, but the CIA managed to make secretaries shoot each other (believing the gun was loaded). (Reference needed, by the way – my point is really that the everyman doesn’t understand hypnosis) You can say that maybe the secretaries wanted to shoot each other in some weird Freudian/conflicted/subconscious way, but it’s not ‘free will’ for someone to locate some motive within you and exploit it by pressing your buttons – you are supposed to have executive control over your various competing motives. A respectful lover/suitor wants to help you express yourself, not to steer you like cattle.

    I don’t need any form of coercive power over someone I love.

    I think I came to this site by way of Mr Writeon’s blogroll. I wasn’t googling ‘drinking urine’, promise…

    @Davina: Glad you liked it.

  37. XUP, lol. I’ve considered the idea of “swimming in the other pond”, but I still prefer men, damnit all. Although, that Golden Girls Do Europe group does sound like a plan; so does Italy.

    I have been to Gs blog. Tweeted and Facebooked his “Culture, Values and Belief” post. Was too shy to comment though. 🙂 But I will… eventually.

    I like the artsy header over there.

  38. Milan – I don’t think it’s a conscious deception — trading sex for a relationship. A lot of women just think that a man wanting them for sex means they really like them and are available for a relationship. It’s a whole thought process/communication disconnect between the sexes.

    G – Mr. Writeon doesn’t read this blog, but I’ve seen his name on someone else’s blog. Interesting how bloggers find each other in this maze.

    Davina – Okay, so I’ll put you down as a maybe for the GGDE club.

  39. I read through the article & all I can say is that the guy sounds like a total desperate loser. I don’t know what kind of lines he uses, but the desperate pawing sounds like something a horny teenage kid would do, not an adult man.

    My college roommate and I used to keep a list of all of the bad pick up lines guys used on us. Some of them were semi-smooth but most of them just sounded so ridiculous and pathetic, no girl with two brain cells would have done anything but laugh at the guy.

    1. I don’t know that I’ve ever been tricked into sex. But maybe I was and just didn’t ever catch on. 🙂
    2. I’m not good at manipulation because it just isn’t my style in anything in life. So, I’ve never used tricks to get a guy. What’s the point in that because at some point you’d have to be yourself and then what? And honestly, if you just want to have sex with a guy, most of them aren’t that hard to get (sorry guys).
    3. I think it would be great if all the losers would follow this guy’s lead so you could easily pick them out and avoid them like the plague.
    4. He made me actually want to take a shower after just reading about him because he sounds so disgusting. I can’t imagine many grown women being impressed with him or his behavior.
    5. As adults we all make decisions about who we have sex with and for what reasons. And if you fall for someone’s bad pickup lines and behavior, that is unfortunate, but a decision that you made.

  40. A lot of women just think that a man wanting them for sex means they really like them and are available for a relationship.

    That’s an interesting hypothesis.

    Generally speaking, I think men like most of the things women do about relationships, but are wary about being overly controlled.

    Certainly, one of the complexities of human relationships is that partners tend to want control over how the other party in the relationship will behave (say, who they will sleep with) but not to give up their own control over such matters.