Pride & Presumptuousness

A few years ago there was an interesting story out of Kenya. Millions of people in that country were starving due to a recent drought. Seeing so many hungry children was something that deeply affected a young lady visiting there from New Zealand. She went back home and tried to figure out a way to get some food to those children in the fastest possible way. One of her friends worked for the Mighty Mix dog food company and offered to immediately send 6,000 packs of dog food mixture to Kenya to help out.

Before you all think “ewww” it should be noted that this was human standard dog food which would provide nutritional, sustainable meals for the children made out of ingredients that the children were used to eating. Of course, sending dog food to starving children still sounds kind of nasty. But I guess it was the most immediate solution to a problem that required an immediate solution.

Anyway, the government of Kenya was very insulted by this offer saying it was culturally unacceptable. Calling someone a dog in Kenya is the worst thing you could do – they don’t even keep dogs as pets there apparantly.

So they refused the food and the drought continued and people and children and livestock died.

I was reminded of this the other night when I ran into my neighbour, who, as I may have mentioned before is having issues with her disability pension because she had the audacity to take on a little part-time work (the income from which she faithfully reported) in order to try and dig herself out of the abject poverty the disability pension has been keeping her for years. So, anyway they cut her off completely because they figured if she could earn some money she didn’t need disability anymore. She’s been fighting it for a couple of months now.

So, as I said, I ran into her the other day and I asked how the battle was going and she said, “Slowly, I’ve been living on nothing but toast for the last couple of weeks. I hope it gets resolved soon.”

Horrified, I asked her why her kids weren’t helping her out – she has four grown kids who all live nearby and are all working. She staunchly declared that she would never, ever, ever  ask her kids for help. She did not want to burden them with her problems.

I gave her hell for being so foolish. I told her how very angry I would be with my mother if for some reason she was having a hard time and didn’t ask me for help. “What if you get sick?” I said. “Then you’ll be even more of a burden.”

Then I went home and collected a couple of bags of groceries, which I pretty much had to force her to accept. “I’m not one of those people who is looking for handouts!” she wailed.” Then I reminded her that she helps me all the time by looking after Bazel when we’re away, which shut her up long enough for me to foist the groceries on her and make my escape.

Pride can be a good and positive thing. If you take pride in things like your work or your appearance or your home, you put effort in making sure it’s the best it can be. It makes you feel good to have accomplished something that’s respected or admired by others.

On the other side of the coin there is pride that does not serve you well. Pride that is too often confused with self-respect.  Of course most people don’t want to have to depend on others for help. Most people want to be able to make their own way in the world; support themselves; look after themselves. And when you’re already in a position of being dependant on a social system, whether it’s because you’re on welfare or disability or if you’re elderly and can’t do without homecare or regular nursing care – you are going to hang on to as much independence as you possibly can, even if it’s to your detriment.

Why do we do this?

I’m pretty self-sufficient — except when it comes to transportation.  I get around pretty well with public transit or walking or sometimes taxis, but there are times when none of those are very feasible or are extremely inconvenient or expensive. People with cars often offer me rides and if it seems to me to not be too much of an inconvenience for them, I will accept the ride – but it makes me feel….what? Humbled? Beholden?

Because during and after the ride I’m always try to think of some way of re-paying that favour. And I won’t feel right about it until I feel I’ve somehow balanced the scales.

The absolute worst case of this was during the transit strike a couple of winters ago when I was completely dependant on other people to get me to and from work. By about the second week of this I was actually physically ill from constantly having to rely on others.

And then there’s that whole feeling of presumptuousness that you want to avoid — I hope they don’t think I take it for granted that they’re driving me around. And you never know if they’re offering the help because they feel they have to or feel sorry for you and are hoping you’ll turn them down.

Ya, it gets to be a crazy head mess.

Especially because if I do a favour for someone, it’s because I want to help.  I certainly don’t expect that to be repaid. Why can’t I just assume that other people think and feel the same way? If someone in need asks me for a favour I consider that a compliment and am honoured to provide whatever help I can.

Okay, I’m not talking about a person who is forever asking for stuff or has no interest in being independent and is happy to let everyone else take care of them. And there are plenty of people who just presume that if you’re in any way better off than them that you owe them something. But that’s a whole other ball of wax.

Anyway, people do a lot of crazy, harmful things in the name of pride — in their relationships,  for instance. They refuse to be the first to apologize because they don’t want the other person to have the “upper hand”. They won’t forgive because forgiveness is equated with loss of pride or self-respect.  They won’t ask for support because “if their partner really loved them they would know what they needed.”

At work we often put up with not being treated well or being passed over for promotion because we’re too proud to ask for what we want – what we feel we deserve. We figure if management is too blind to our excellent qualities and doesn’t value us, then we’re not going to humiliate ourselves by trying to set them straight

But pride is not the same thing as self-respect, I think. When you’re doing something because it’s good for you and serves you well – that’s self-respect. If you’re doing something just to save face or because you “won’t give in” or because “you don’t want them to win” and this attitude/behaviour is harming you in some way – that’s misplaced pride. There’s no self-respect in that. It’s one of those cutting-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face type of things.

There are all sorts of ways we let this pride become an obstacle in our lives, isn’t there?  Is there an obstacle in your life that you can’t get by because your “pride” won’t let you? How do we overcome something like that? How do we find a balance between maintaining true self-respect and still being able to ask for or accept assistance when we need it? Have you mastered it?


36 responses to “Pride & Presumptuousness

  1. 5 years ago, my folks offered to help me out with a down payment so I could get a house.

    “No, No…thank you”, I said. “You’ve done enough for me, helping me out all those years in school. . I’ll take care of this on my own”.

    I figured I didn’t’ want to depend on them anymore.

    So in the mean time, I was renting a tiny, drafty miserable house. One day the furnace went on the fritz and I ended up with greasy soot on all my stuff in the storage room.

    That was the tipping point. I asked myself: WHY was refusing the money? I hate where I live. My folks weren’t hurting for money. And they offered it to me. Was I STUPID, or something?

    Shortly after, I took my Mom up on her offer. I’m in the house I’m living in now. Much happier. And she’s still alive to see me enjoy her gift (as opposed to me inheriting it after she dies)

    My only regret is that I didn’t accept her offer sooner.

  2. It took me a while but I finally “gutted up” and started explaining my mental illness to people. It was tiresome always making excuses for not doing things. I’m not comfortable with lying and yet I couldn’t bring myself to say, “I’m afraid I’ll have a paralyzing anxiety attack if I leave my house.” I mean, really, who wants to say that? Especially to people you don’t know well. I finally reached a point where I could say, “I’m sorry but I have an anxiety disorder and that’s not something I’m comfortable with doing.” I’m on much better meds now (after years of my doc trying different ones) and it’s not much of a problem now. The days where I really absolutely can’t get out of the house are very few and far between. It really took a lot for me to start talking openly about it and of course, now I wish I had started sooner.

  3. If any of your readers has been offered monetary gifts but is too proud to accept them, please send the generous people my way.

    Life’s too short as it is, why make it intentionally more difficult out of pride (or is it stupidity?)

    I remember the Kenya story, and at the time, I also remembered a news story I’d seen (on 60 Minutes perhaps?) about Ralston Purina, and how with the “wet” dog food at least, we were basically feeding our dogs the most nutritious parts of the animal (well, the organ meat is better for you than what we eat…)

    I’m sorry, but all I could think was – what a bunch of stupid bastards.

    Sometimes these countries are messed up because the people running them are messed up, and maybe instead of trying to help them, we should just look after our own people first.

  4. If Canada had a drought and people were dying , will it be proper for countries of the world to send in dog food?Will keep that in mind.

  5. If Canada has a drought and people are dying, and my government refuses food and aid from other countries out of pride, I’ll go to Ottawa and eat the Prime Minister myself.

    If anyone thinks that it was “dog food” in a can, go read the article – it was more like a protein powder.

    But you know what? Fine, if you’re too proud to accept help, starve to death.

    Survival of the fittest. If you’re too proud to accept help from your fellow human beings, you are obviously not fit to survive.

  6. Thanks. Have made a mental note of what to send. Along with a get well card saying “take it or starve to death.”hoping that both will be received in high spirits

  7. Didn’t Mad Max eat dog food in Road Warrior?

    Good enough for him, good enough for me.

    I’ve eaten dog food too. Tastes ok but smells horrible. Dry dog food is like cardboard.


  8. I have been accused of being too independent, yet I think if I need help I’ll ask for it. In some way, I feel privileged to have friends who would want to help if they can. And, like you, I find it a compliment if someone asks me for a favour.

    I also find it a bit insulting when my offers of help are continually rebuffed. I have elderly neighbours who don’t drive and I have said repeatedly that I would be glad to pick up things like kitty litter or food for them, or drive them to the grocery store (it’s not like I don’t have to do this for myself) but it becomes a battle of wills and eventually I give up.

  9. Friar – Good for you. I have no problems accepting help from my family because I know I’ve helped them when they needed it and would again whenever. Sure, I’d rather it was one of my siblings than my mother…I don’t know why….maybe because I reckon I already owe her big time.

    Geewits – An interesting example. People are still afraid to talk about mental health issues, but I’ll bet most of us if we’re over 40 have experienced at the very least, some sort of stress, anxiety, depression related thing. And why is that anything to be more embrassed about than having cancer or diabetes or a heart problem?

    Dr. Monkey – You’re a wise monkey. Imagine starving or letting children starve out of some misplaced sense of pride?When you think of all the people that are using the food banks or panhandling in the streets, how many more are just quietly wasting away because they’re too proud to ask for help?

    Brett- Ya, it sounds a little insulting to be offering people dog food, but it was the easiest and quickest and most complete thing they could think of to send. They could have offered bags of rice but that is hardly going to keep people alive.

    … Of course it would be a lot nicer if they offered prime rib and bags of potatoes and rice and more bags of beans and lentils and crates of fresh fruits and vegetables and bags of milk and cartons of ice cream, but some of that stuff doesn’t travel well and would have gone bad and/or lost most of its nutritional value on the way. And the stuff that does travel well isn’t nutrionally sound on its own and would have required a few weeks of coordinating to implement. This was a complete nutrional mix that employees of the company had eaten themselves. They were ready to ship it immediately so the kids would have had something to eat to keep them alive while something more pleasant could be arranged. Are you saying you’d let your own children die before feeding them something like this?

    Brett – Touche. There are plenty of people in North America who are living on dog food because it’s more or less a complete nutritional package and it’s cheaper than trying to assemble the same meal from regular groceries. I guess … has never been hungry enough for that.

    Friar – I think every kid who’s ever had a dog has tasted dog food.

    Eyeteaguy – I don’t know. I never saw Mad Max. Like I said before, I’m sure there are plenty of people in this country for whom dog food is a staple.

    Violetsky – Ya, people can be real stubborn when it comes to their sense of pride. And also then they feel like they owe you something and maybe they can’t afford to repay the favour. Or maybe they just don’t like you and don’t want to have anything to do with you! Ha ha! (I don’t see how that is possible)

  10. I’m in a somewhat similar position to geewits: having an illness that doesn’t have outward symptoms but makes some stuff not possible. In my case, I’ve got rheumatoid arthritis which makes me really achy, tired and incapable of doing normal activities (like carrying things) sometimes. And for a long, long time I was really bad about not wanting my husband to help me with anything because I didn’t want to feel like I couldn’t do stuff or that I was incapable or depending on others for simple things. And I just flat out didn’t want my friends to know. So stupid really because it isn’t like something I could change or made a conscious decision to have RA. However, I was, and still am, really independent and hate that feeling of relying on others. It’s pride at its most unattractive honestly. I think I’m getting better about it though (not sure my husband would always agree though LOL).

    It’s funny, or maybe sad, that we can’t see others having the same good intentions that we have when they offer to help us out with things, isn’t it? I know I definitely do that too though. I know I am doing it to be helpful and don’t want anything in return, but I find it hard to believe others feel the same way. Do we not think we are worthy of people wanting to help us out just because they like us or care about us?

  11. Why is it so hard for people to accept help when they need it? And I lump myself into that.

    For the record, if ever I do you a favour, it’s because I want to, no need to reciprocate.

  12. @XUP,

    Your responses to my comments and “four dots” summed up my line of thinking well, as a means of explaining my comment about “not being fit to survive”.

    I’m sorry, but if you put your politics or religion or pride before the health of your children, you are truly someone with a lot of mental problems. People like that have no business being parents, much less being in positions of power in a government.

    That was kind of my line of thinking.

  13. For many of us there is a certain ego stroking in being the one able to help others. I’m the biggest, strongest,
    handiest one of the family so I can be the one helping others. Then when the time comes that we need help it is sometimes hard to admit that we aren’t the one on top. Lately I have come to appreciate how important it is to be able to accept help from those near me and now I’m an even better person than I was before I developed this new humbility.

  14. they refused the dog food? yeah nasty but sheesh, if youre hungry, eat whats there.

    i know youre pain on the rides thing. im the same way.

  15. @Brett

    Maybe “Four Dots” is two different people.

    One-Dot. And Three-Dot.

    Or mabye it’s a family of four One-Dots.

    That’s what makes the Internet so interesting. You never really know who you’re talking to.

  16. Kimberly – There is a certain satisfaction (and pride) in being as self-sufficient as possible, especially perhaps if you have special challenges to deal with. So it’s a fine line between meeting and overcoming your challenges and suffering because you won’t ask for help when you really need it. It IS strange that we assume we’re just so much better than other people when it comes to being willing and happy to lend a hand, isn’t it?

    Jazz – That’s the question, isn’t it? I think there are a lot of complex issues at work when you feel so cripplingly reluctant to ask for help when you’re in a desperate situation.

    Brett – I wonder if four dots has a blog? I would be interested in reading it. And yes, I would eat dog SHIT if that somehow helped my child.

    Dave1949 – I can see how this experience would have been a learning thing for you. Big tough guy…there wasn’t much you couldn’t take care of yourself. And most of the time, you were happy to be the guy helping other people out, right? I can see how losing some of that would have been difficult for you at first, but I’m so glad that you opened yourself to letting people help you when you needed it. It’s a surprisingly difficult thing to do.

    Jobthingy – Holy jumpin’! Where have YOU been? And ya, the rides thing. In theory I could get a car. I have a license. I just really, really don’t want to cope with a car and I really, really hate driving. This makes me feel even worse when I have to accept a ride from someone …because there’s no reason I don’t drive myself except that I don’t want to

    Friar – Do you think it’s a group blog then? Or a mommy blog where the other 3 dots represent her family? Except they’re all the same size, so that can’t be right. Maybe it’s a philosophy blog where the dots represent human specks in the universe. Or maybe it’s a comic blog and the dots are all related to L’il Dot or Dotty Dot?

  17. I’m wonding about this. Who turned the food down? The well fed politicians?

    I’ll bet if you asked the hungry folks on the ground if they would like some dog food they would do a Mad Max and chow down.

    I offer my help all the time and am turned down quite a lot. Poeple like to do things on their own in their own way and not have to owe people.

    Me? I take all the help I can get. I’m a little guy in a big world and I’m drowning.


    P.S. Maybe “….” forgot his name, or is Gracious, or is another such faceless person who made an ass of themselves under another nickname and wants a fresh start and make an ass out of themselves under their new nickname?

  18. I make a point of only apologizing when I’ve done something wrong, and as a subset of that, when I’ve upset or offended someone unintentionally. If I were apologize to everyone who’s offended by something I say or the way I say it, then that takes away from the times I’m truly sorry. I don’t think that’s a pride thing.

    I’d like to say that* when I’m on the other side of the situation and someone’s insulted me and refuses to apologize, I don’t let that stop me from working with them when I need to to get something done. Problem is they tend to be the type who can’t let it go. (*I’d like to say this because I think it’s true, but I might have selective memory on this).

    Oh, and I don’t think “….” gets the point of the post. Flip it around. Would you feed your pet something you wouldn’t eat yourself? Do you not respect your pet?

    – RG>

  19. I am not sure if I would eat dog food during hungry times, probably yes, but just the idea of putting those bits on my mouth makes me feel sick… there are other type of help that can be accepted in better mood… sometimes the intention is not enough… when I (we, my husband and kids) went through hard times, were caused because someone had the intention to help us, but at the contrary their actions caused more pain and problems to us, that still I am trying to heal that pain in my soul…
    We have accepted help during those hard times, from my mom and some friends and we appreciate it a lot, even years after that… forever….
    I have always felt that I need to recompense the kindness in some way… and specially during those hard times when I was unable to do it , it made me feel so miserable… until one day, one of our friends told us, that when we have the opportunity, we should help somebody else, in the same way she was helping us and that will be overpaid… and I learned the lesson!! We have done it hundreds of times… and we are not expecting to receive something else different from a smile or a sincere thanks…
    …that’s all and make us more than happy…
    On the other hand …I… still feel that I need to give back something every time someone has a nice gesture with me or my loved ones,… not only a thanks…
    …few weeks ago, at the office, we talked about a very similar topic, and I was trying to explain my reasons why I don’t like to receive presents on my birthday or special dates, from people that is not too close to me, like work colleagues… due to my inability to manage that kind of gestures as honest as could be. I feel like people are expecting something else… although everyone try to dissuade me that those are just simple gestures or friendship… I am still feel I owe them too much…
    In the last couple of years I have tried to overcome that issue and every birthday I have been able to improve and accept the hellos and best wishes messages without so much thinking about…

  20. Eyeteaguy – From what I read, it was the majority of the government. There were actually a few of them who tried to urge the others to take the dog food rather than let the people keep starving. I think it’s very recently that people became so isolated. I think it was with the advent of the automobile that we stopped being a communal animal; inter-dependent. It makes so much more sense to live as a tribe drawing from the strengths of each other and providing support for each others’ weaknesses. We’re so stupid. (PS: We’re going to ignore Gracious, I think)

    Grouchy – I think the apology thing is worse when we’re talking about a married couple or any people who live together day in and day out. Pride has no place in that dynamic because it just causes a lot of coldness and resentment. As for the pet food, I feed my cat good quality food. If I ate meat I would be very tempted to try it. The chicken especially smells really good some days.

    Nathalia – I feel the same way about gifts. I even feel uncomfortable when my family and close friends give me gifts. I don’t know why. It’s not a nice way to be because I’m sure my discomfort shows and it takes away from the joy the other person is feeling in giving the gift. I don’t think we realize sometimes how our stubborn sense of pride hurts other people.

    Friar – That story is brutal. And you’re right. People who think they wouldn’t eat dog food no matter how hungry they are just have no idea what starving to death is like. I don’t either, but I have no illusions about turning up my nose at anything if I were ever in that situation. Look at the story of that Uruguayan soccer team to had to eat their dead team-mates to stay alive. There were a few who at first couldn’t bring themselves to eat human flesh either, but they soon changed their minds. If it means survival or death I’d have no qualms whatsoever about eating dog food or people or dirt or maggots or whatever it took.

  21. In some instances, having a favour repaid negates the intention of the original giving. You can always ‘pay it forward’ in some way, or just be grateful and appreciative.

  22. This is something I see every day at work. I work at sheltered housing for the elderly and there are some people there that have really come to the stage in their lives where they could do with a bit of help from their family, and I’ve spoken with the families in question and they are keen to help, but the parents will not consider accepting it. Very sad.

  23. I am embarrassed to say, but I am THE worst at apologizing. I’m one of those stupid people who feels like it takes away my power to apologize. And if I actually do it, it’s clear that I’m not comfortable doing it. I’m working on it though.

  24. One of the best posts ever. This has given me so much to think about.

    My husband is disabled and I am little (not even 4’11”) and we sometimes need help with stuff that bigger people with taller reaches and stronger backs can do easily. We are pained to ask.

    Yet we do favours for others all the time . . . fostering, caring for a friend with mental illness, joyfully hosting family gatherings for our ginormous clan. This is as easy for us as moving furniture is for our young ginormous friends. I think part of the pain comes from not being able to pay back in kind. Which, when you think about it, is a little nuts.

    Appreciating the kind of gifts that others have to give and being free with our own is maybe better way to live.

  25. Violetsky – You’re so right. It’s very ungracious to accept a gift whilst plotting on how you can give them an equal or better gift before you can enjoy the gift. I really have to work on being a generous receiver of gifts. I’m so uncomfortable with gifts. So.

    Catherine – That’s so sad. Right away I think, how mean spirited of the old folks not to let their kids help –though I’m sure their motivation is just to “not be a burden”. In an effort not to be the stereotypical whiney, needy old folks they hurt themselves and their children by pushing their children away. Maybe you give them this post to read and the wonderful comments??

    Mo – An easy way to overcome that is to think of apologizing for what it really is – empowering. You’ve been the bigger person and shouldered responsibility for something that has offended or hurt someone. Even if you think you were “right”. You’re not apologizing for your position or opinion, just for hurting the other person. Of course you don’t have to be a doormat about it and go around apologizing for your very existence. A balance is always good. And it depends on the person. Family and loved ones get more ready apologies than coworkers or acquaintances.

    Grace – It means a lot to me to have you say that. One of the great things about reading blogs for me is that they can often click a little switch for you that makes you look at something in a different way. If the shoes were on the other feet, wouldn’t you be thrilled to be asked to help out a friend or family member who is trying to cope with what you and your husband are living with? Doesn’t helping someone make you feel really good? I wonder why it’s so difficult to imagine that others would feel the same way? Because as you can see from the comments, everyone has pretty much the same problem here. They are eager and willing to help others, but for some reason don’t think anyone else feels that way. As I said to someone else before, it’s such a shame that we’ve become so isolated in the last half century or so when before that we lived as part of a tribe or part of a community where helping each other out and asking for and accepting help from others was a natural part of your life. Why would the old granny go out hunting for wildebeest when her strong young grandson was so much better equipped to do so and share some of his hunt with the granny. The granny sat back and told the kiddies stories which freed up the mother to get to the river to beat her laundry against some rocks…etc., etc.

  26. Late comment-I just want to say that its pretty f*cked up of that woman to send dog food to Kenya. I mean, seriously, DOG FOOD?! What the hell was she thinking? Such a dumb and patronizing move! Anyone would be insulted if they were starving to death and the best that some rich person from some rich country could send is food for pets.

    There are lots of inexpensive non-perishables for *human* consumption that she could have sent instead.

  27. Pauline – As I mentioned in some of my other comments, the dog food was the most nutritionally complete, sustainable thing she could find to send immediately. It would have taken weeks or even months to round up and make arrangements to send enough rice, corn, beans, milk powder, etc., etc. and whatever else it took to pull together enough food to make it nutritionally viable. A lot of those kids didn’t have that much time. Her friend at the dog food company often eats the stuff herself. It’s in dry form like granola and it could have been shipped out and in the hands of the Kenyans in a matter of hours and contained ingredients that were a staple in the Kenyans diet anyway. A lot of problems are sometimes caused by well-meaning people sending what they think of as “good food” to nations that are unaccustomed to eating that food and it makes them ill.
    I don’t suppose you’ve ever been starving to death? Neither have I, but I can guarantee that I would be happy to eat whatever anyone could manage to find for me that would keep me or my children alive. When you’re starving to death, I don’t think you worry about niceties like being insulted that someone isn’t offering you food with the right label.

  28. Pauline – Did you read that story in the link Friar left? These Haitian people were eating dirt because they had nothing else. They would have danced for joy at some bags of dog food. If we took the same healthy, nutritionally complete food product and we labelled it “Breakfast Cereal” instead of “Dog Food” would that have made it okay to send to Kenya?

  29. XUP-I understand that dog food would have been easier and faster to send and has some nutritional value, but it still seems disrespectful to me. (Particularly since, as you mentioned, in their culture, being associated with canines is very offensive) I’m not saying she’s a bad person, but she could have done some research and tried to put herself in their shoes before sending the stuff over.

    I haven’t read that article that Friar mentioned, but I will. Seems odd though, that with all the aid they received, that they are now reduced to eating dirt, but I have read that after the disaster, the aid wasn’t properly distributed to everyone equally.

  30. Pauline – The article was from before the earthquake. As for Kenya – there were some factions of the government who were eager to accept the food and keep their people alive. And I’m sure the populace would have been only too happy to take whatever they could get quickly. It was just certain, well-fed factions of the government who turned their noses up at the food that was offered. I don’t know. If I or my child were starving to death and absolutely nothing to eat and someone offered us elephant dung to eat, I’d take it. If you were starving to death, would you reject anything with some sort of nutritional, belly-filling value? People eat dead family members when they’re hungry enough for pete’s sake.

  31. i love love love this post xup, you outlined it all so well. i’m one of those prideful folks who isn’t fond of asking for help, yet i’m willing to always help someone in need if it’s a genuine need.

    i think it goes way back, the message that if you needed help you were weak. now, i would say that pendulum has gone in the other direction making some people help-less and dependent which is not healthy for any human being. there’s a balance to all that kind of stuff.

    so much of that stuff is tied up in self respect like you pointed out, and i think overly prideful people tend to have a skewed sense of themselves, so they overdo it and that’s a turn off to most people.

    i could write more but i think i’ve done enough 🙂 again, excellent post.